The Remedy for Toxic Business w/Mark Silver

Can a business really thrive and NOT be toxic? Can it actually be beneficial to the people running it, its customers, its workers, AND the planet?

Mark Silver has the answer - and it’s a resounding YES!

Mark has worked with 1000’s of businesses over the last quarter century and has proof that every act of business can be an act of love. As leaders grasp what that even means and begin to embody it, we will be the change we’ve been waiting for.

Stephanie and Maren unpack this progressive business (and personal) model with Mark learning about his activism, business and Sufi background along the way. His concept (and book) Heart-Centered Business: Healing the Toxic Business Culture so your Small Business Can Thrive makes for an engaging and inspiring conversation.

We cover everything from Mark’s fascinating story, to what is the heart of a business, to the gifts and strengths that we are meant to unfold and share, to going beyond the transactional corporate way that we know as business.

How do we work with our businesses instead of just having an agenda that we force? What might our businesses want to have happen for us or for humanity? These questions and more are at the “Heart” of today’s conversation.

04:33 The ‘Heart of Business'
     The Sufi perspective, Constant distractions, Outer dissonance 
08:04 Your relationship with your business
     What is my business asking from me? What does it want to give me?
13:12 Mark’s Story
     Activist and punk, not-for-profit, magazine, Sufi business healing
16:11 the intersection between outer business practices and inner spiritual truths
     Marketing without the ick. Seeing sales tactics so you don’t get taken in. 
     Emotional Hijacking. ‘Best’ business practices.
30:24 Business as a force for good - the small business revolution
34:10 Security and joy
36:48 4 Stages of Business Development
43:13 Mark’s leadership thoughts on practice
     The ‘thing’ that's going to do it. Environment, and then let it flourish. 
     Being uncomfortable

LINKS

• 02:11 Heart Centered Business Book
• 21:12 Emotional Regulation Ep 175
• 50:30 Missed Takes Ep 161
• 51:09 Heart Centered Business Book
• 51:32 www.heartofbusiness.com

TRANSCRIPT

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Transcript

Stephanie Allen: 0:00

Hi! Welcome to The Soulful Leader Podcast. This is Stephanie. I'm here with Maren, and we are super excited because we have an amazing guest today. His name is Mark Silver, and he is a wonderful being who helps people literally do business differently and recover from the toxic means that business is kind of being portrayed in this world today.

Maren Oslac: 0:26

The traditional way that we are taught to do business, it's, because we live in it. We don't even realize how toxic it is. Sometimes we feel it, and I think so much of, so many of our issues, both personal and in our world, in our business comes from living within this system that we don't even realize is so toxic.

Stephanie Allen: 0:56

Yeah, and it informs the way that we see ourselves in the world. And one of the things I really loved about Mark and our podcast that we're talking about is like, literally, that every act of business can be an act of love, and I don't think we really embody that, or know how even what that means. And so we start to unpack that with him, and what a great being. He comes from fourth generation entrepreneur in his family, as well as his background as a paramedic, and he's a podcaster, and he's an author of some great books that he's got out there, and a spiritual healer and coach... he's just got he's bringing such a plethora of support and guidance. He's also practicing Sufi, so with a master's in divinity. So I think he's stretching from all different quadrants of what is possible, and then integrates, you know, that the outer world and the inner world, which I so love, and to me as a soulful leader, he really embodies that.

Maren Oslac: 2:01

He does, and I think there are so many favorite parts of our conversation with him, and one of my favorite was just diving into the name of his book Heart-Centered Business, and it's healing the toxic business culture so your small business can thrive. And we talked, we kind of unpacked what is the heart of a business. And when we start to think about it like that, it changes everything. And I won't spoil it for you, because it was just such a delightful conversation. I think you guys will...Stephanie and I absolutely loved this conversation, and I know that you all will as well.

Stephanie Allen: 2:41

And for those of you who might be listening to this going, well, I don't have a business, so you know, don't click... don't click off. Because, you know, we all have the business of being here in this world, and that we all have gifts and strengths that we are meant to unfold and to share with the world. So look at, you know, our business, your business, beyond the the transactional corporate kind of mean that we know as business. We talk about that, and you know Mark really transcends that he does.

Maren Oslac: 3:14

Well, please, as usual, let us know your thoughts, and we'll see you on our Facebook page and on our LinkedIn page. Both of those are at The Soulful Leader, and we look forward to hearing your comments. Please enjoy our conversation with Mark Silver.

Stephanie Allen: 3:37

In a world where we have everything and it's still not enough, we're often left wondering, is this really it?

Maren Oslac: 3:43

Deep inside you know, there's more to life. You're ready to leave behind the old push your way through and claim the deeper, more meaningful life that's calling you.

Stephanie Allen: 3:53

That's what we invite you to explore with us. We're your hosts, Stephanie Allen

Maren Oslac: 3:58

and Maren Oslac And this is The Soulful Leader Podcast.

Stephanie Allen: 4:03

Yay!

Maren Oslac: 4:04

So we're very excited today to have our guest Mark Silver with us, and he is, as you know from the intro, he's got a business called The Heart of Business, and I want to kind of get us kicked off with a question. Kind of dive right into it. Mark with, tell me what it means to you, The Heart of Business.

Mark Silver: 4:33

So thank you. I'm really delighted to be here. Thank you so much for having me. And you know, it really has a very spiritual meaning. And from a Sufi perspective, everything that exists has a heart, and that is the expression. And that is the divine presence in it. And you know from it, again, from a Sufi perspective, everything came from the oneness, and everything is an expression of the oneness. And when we talk about the human being, we have a heart, and that heart is our spiritual heart is our connection and expression of the divine. The Divine through us. Everything, everything that exists, is a divine expression. So everything has a heart. And when we talk about heart of business, we're saying that there is, that any business, any thing, any project, has this existence, that it is its own and that we can connect with it. So that's kind of like the more esoteric meaning. Heart of business, in another sense, is really just being with the essence of it. I think that we get overwhelmed. A lot of people in business get overwhelmed, so many details, so many things to do, so many people, so many... just coming at you. And when we can connect with the essence, when we can connect with the heart, can connect with the love, all of those distractions and overwhelm can melt away, and we can be really clear, like, what is it that we're up to. What is it that we need to be focused on where, you know, where does our attention and our care need to be?

Stephanie Allen: 6:30

That there can create a lot of noise in the outer world, and we get very addicted to that, and that becomes our identity and our kind of, our guiding, our guiding, or our guidance, rather than what I'm hearing you say is like, you know, being able to really connect into that heart allows the outer dissonance to literally dissipate and fall away.

Mark Silver: 6:56

Yeah, exactly, yeah.

Maren Oslac: 6:58

I love the analogy with the like the human body has a heart, so at a very practical level, right? So if the heart stops in our body, the body stops, and I don't think that we think about that with our business. Business is all about the busyness of business instead of the heart. And like, when I know for myself with my studio, when our heart, you know, it's like thinking about it from that perspective, I look back and I realized that there was a point in time when the heart of our business started to, like, go downhill and have problems. And that's where, you know, like we we found it back. You know, we went through many cycles. There were times when we were able to get it back, and then it dissipated again. And and looking, you know, to to be able to be present and look at it in the moment from that perspective, how powerful that is for changing your business

Mark Silver: 8:04

Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, you know, we've worked with, at this point, 1000's of business owners over the last quarter of a century, and you know, one of the things that we consistently come back to is asking people to slow down and to and listen to the heart of the business. Like do some listening. A lot of times people are only active with their business when they're trying to make the business do something and be productive with it, which, you know, on one hand, kind of makes sense. But the truth is that if we had a relationship, if we, you know, when we have a relationship with a loved one, if the only time that we interacted with them was trying to get them to do something, that would be a really painful, you know, toxic, dysfunctional relationship, and I think that it's, it's actually extremely practical and extremely efficient, as well as just really nourishing, to just slow down, just kind of be with your business, and to listen, you know, and there's a lot of different ways people talk about this, but to be able to pause and to be able to listen to what's actually in motion to what actually has your attention, to what actually is asking for your attention. It's, I think we're all familiar with the analogy of fighting fires in your business, running from one urgent thing to the other, but not really taking notice of what really needs to be cared for. You know, and and I think that that's really at the heart of helping a business really thrive without hurting yourself or hurting anyone else associated with it.

Stephanie Allen: 9:54

I like what you said about a relationship, like, if you just ignored a relationship and then you wanted it to do something, it doesn't go very well. It's like, when I think of this heart or the soul of a business we, you know, to be able to ask that question of, like, I might have an ego, possibility of what I want to have happen, like goal setting and different things that we talk about, especially, you know, when we think of, you know, quarterly goals and quarterly, yearly goals and things like that. We have this agenda that we want to have happen, and then we kind of force it and push it and try to make it happen without considering that the business has a heart and a soul, and what might it ...it being the business want to have happen for us or for humanity or for something else, and having that collaborative conversation, and I think that's so important, and it's so far as I'm concerned, at least in my world, I don't really find that a lot of people think that way.

Mark Silver: 10:58

It's true, you know, and we lead people through this kind of an exercise all the time. I mean, there's a lot of really practical things we attend to as well. Like, there's, you know, marketing and the structures, the systems and, you know, team and all these things that do need, you know, they need care and attention and... and this deeper listening of like, what is it that the business is asking from me, and if it gets it, what does it want to give me? I mean, that's one of the ways we construct that. And people are often really surprised because they have it in their head like, oh, the business, I need to work really hard. I need to be pushing all the time. And what often people hear is like, Oh, the business just needs some care, or it needs me to be more joyous, or it needs to be more playful. These are the kinds of messages... I was just hearing recently from folks and it's very surprising. People go, is that really true? And then they feel it, and then they lean into it, and then when they bring their playfulness to their business, suddenly things get a lot easier. Suddenly the relationships and the connections that they're making are much more effective. They lead places. A lot of times when we bring that kind of like, I gotta get it done, productive energy that pushes people away. It doesn't feel good to be around very often.

Stephanie Allen: 12:19

It doesn't feel good to do that either as as a business person. It's like, I don't ...that's not my like...I feel very salesy. I feel very push, like pressure, and I that's not who I want to be in my business. And I know there's a certain requirement of that, and I know I need to sometimes have that mind shift around it. Instead of saying I'm like selling, I'm actually serving. And that is a shift, isn't it? Of like, looking at it from a different place, if you could say...there's two questions I have for you, if you could say more about that, as well as, I'm also really curious how you even came to this. Like, how that shift, of like, because there's so much toxicity in the business world out there on how to do it and that old push, push your way through it. And that's what Maren and I talk a lot about. It's like, there's another way. But I'm so curious about even how you got there.

Mark Silver: 13:12

So yeah, and we can come back around to how do you shift into that. I would again, that was something we were just talking... I was just talking about earlier today, but the how I got into it, actually, I grew up an activist, a punk in in outside Washington, DC, and hated business, hated what business was doing to the world. You know, this is back in the 1980s and I just really kind of kept that in my heart. I saw that over and over and over again and and yet, at a certain point in my life, I through the nonprofit world, through running a magazine, through these kinds of things, I learned something about marketing. I grew up in small business with my parent's business that was my grandfather's, and I saw people, friends of ours, who were self employed doing really, really important, beautiful work, organic gardeners, people just trying to make a living, and they're like, how do I...how do I do this? And I knew more than I thought I did. And then we intersected with a Sufi teacher, and there was a three year school that talked about business healing specialty, and business healing was one of the specialties offered. And I was like, What? Business healing? What does that even mean? And it provided me an alternative to the kind of anger reaction based activism that was really burning me out. I'm not saying anything bad, like we need that kind of activism, but for one person you know, for somebody to do only that for years and years, is really exhausting. And so as I learned about business healing, there was this intersection between the business know how that I had had and that I continue to learn over years with these elements of spiritual healing, of connecting with love, and it began to merge in my heart. And I, you know, I did the work, I got the training, I got my masters of divinity. I, you know, I was faculty with the school. And it's, it's been woven into the fabric of what we do, at Heart of Business, where there's an approach to spirituality in business that says, go sit on the cushion or pick up your beads or do whatever, and fill yourself up. This the gas tank analogy. And then you go do business the way that you have to do business, because that's how business is done. And then when your tank is empty, you go fill up again. And that that has never really worked, that's never felt right to me. And so when we in learning this, and in seeing in my own heart, kind of like the intersection between outer business practices and inner spiritual truths, I just saw that integrated, and that's what we've been teaching. It's like there's a way to do business. What we say every act of business can be an act of love, and people really get to be in business. So for instance, it's all sounds very esoteric, so like one of the big things we teach around is marketing, because, of course, for small businesses, that's a huge block and stumbling ground and need and, you know, and so the basic teaching and marketing is like, you've got to market to the to the to the pain, and you've got to push those pain buttons, and when people have the reaction, then you can offer them the solution. That's a very traumatic based way of selling. It's manipulative, it's gross, it's really painful, but if you try to do marketing just from like an aspirational place, people don't respond. And there's a deep spiritual teaching the Sufi tradition, that says that we really yearn to be known, that the heart is yearns to be known, that the divine created the creation yearning to be known, and the creation came out of that desire to be known. And that's what we also carry in our hearts, this deep desire to be known. And so there are ways to talk about the struggle that people might have with whatever it is that you're offering, with compassion, with seeing them as a whole person, and with a deep trust that they have a way through that doesn't necessarily have to come from you. Like it doesn't... like your solution can be one of the things on offer. But you can see people and just say, you know, I see that you're struggling with whatever... you know? Like an example with a chiropractor, you know, oh, you know, if you don't fix your back, you'll never pick up your child again. You'll never live a full life. You better come get fixed. You know, it's like, it just feels gross. But, or you can say, like, yeah, back pain, chronic back pain can be debilitating, and it can keep you from things that you really love. And thankfully, the body can heal. In most cases, it can heal, and there's a lot of different ways to do that. You know? There's a lot depending. And what we offer is something that works for a wide variety of people. And if you think that you need it, you know it's like you can just bring a different tone, where you can really witness the struggle, where people feel witness, but they don't feel pressured, they don't feel traumatized, they don't feel activated by it.

Maren Oslac: 18:56

Yeah, I like that, that not having to retraumatize somebody and then push them like then, because that's, that is the traditional way of doing it. They don't use those words, and that's essentially what it is...you know, push the pain point. Well, you know what? That's retraumatizing somebody.

Mark Silver: 19:13

It is, it is.

Maren Oslac: 19:14

Then you put a time limit on like, and if you don't sign up today you're going to lose out on this discount. So then you take that and you add you layer on top of it, additional trauma of like the the whole FOMO fear of missing out. And it is. It's like the yucky. It is the business yucky.

Mark Silver: 19:37

We have a whole guide that I wrote called Don't Buy Now, and it was about how to spot manipulative sales tactics so you don't have to get taken in by them. And it's like, it's just when people can see them, you know, it's a difference between... between being at a carnival with all the bright lights at night, you know, versus being there in the daylight and you can see the tricks. It's like. You know?

Maren Oslac: 20:01

Yeah, it's like, you've taken the Wizard of Oz curtain and you've opened it and been like, see the Wizard

Mark Silver: 20:08

If anybody's offering you a time limited... but like, if you sign up while we're on this call, don't ever do it. Do not ever. Like, categorically... NO.

Stephanie Allen: 20:16

How many times I have I done that? Like, you know, how many times have I been on a call where someone has done that, and I'm like, Oh, I have to do this, because if I don't, I can feel ashamed. Like, yeah, if I don't, I'm going to miss out, like, the fear of missing out, but also after sometimes when I do that, then I'm like, ew, ick. I feel Ick. Like, how do I get out of this now? Like, I'm not engaged from my heart and my soul. I'm engaged from a place of fear, yes, yes.

Mark Silver: 20:42

And I can promise you that anybody is using that kind of a tactic, they are benefiting from the fact that you're not able to take the time to regulate your own system and to look at it and to talk over with people that you trust, you know, to get second opinions and to really do your research like it's... it's, don't, don't, don't, ever, there's never a good reason to use that as that's, you know, one of the manipulative tactics.

Stephanie Allen: 21:11

And I like what you just said about the

Mark Silver: 21:12

Right! Especially in the sales conversation. But emotional regulation, because I think that's a real key thing. I've talked to some of my clients about that, and I know they do it on teams. They do it within companies and corporate some people don't...like, well, what is emotional regulation like? What even is that and why is that necessary now? Why? Why, if we don't have emotional regulation, what are the issues that come up with that? And I think that's where, and I'd love for you to talk about that a bit too, because I think that's also where the toxic business culture comes in, is that they actually hijack that emotion. cultures. Do that all the time. You know? They take advantage and all this talk about like... we're a family, and it's like, oh yeah....so yeah and families are never dysfunctional and painful and trauma thing, right?(laughter) So, anyway... you're not a family. Businesses are not a family. And, yeah, so emotional regulation. I just want to say I'm not a therapist. I am not a trauma healer. I'm trauma informed. I've had to go through my own PTSD in my former career. I was a paramedic in the911, system in the San Francisco Bay area, in Oakland and Alameda County, and so I had to deal with that. And so I know about it, and I know a little bit about trauma healing, but it's not my specialty, so I'm talking about it as a lay person. But emotional regulation, you know, when strong emotions come up, they push us, you know, like they...you know, if you're scared, you retract, or you do whatever you do when you're scared. Some people, you know, lash out. Some people retreat. Some people cling like there's all these different kinds of reaction cycles that we go into when certain emotions are large, you know, and that doesn't have to be... it could be grief, it could be sadness, it could be anger. There could be, you know, whenever those kinds of things are, are activated. I mean, in politics today, you can see how they're using emotional dysregulation to get people, you know, get certain populations very angry, and then they they are very reactive, and they're not really operating from a place of wisdom or connection, or, you know, or truth. And so it's okay. I mean, we have big emotions. That's not a ...it's not a bad thing. You just don't want to take action when you're in that state. You don't want to you know, make big decisions when you're in that state. You know, a lot of times when I'm talking to a potential client who's considering hiring me, unless we have, like, a long association, they know me well. But if it's somebody that I don't know or they're new to me, you know, I say I don't expect you to make a decision while we're talking. In fact, it'll be important for us to hang up and for you to take some time away from me, because when you're in somebody's flow, it can be very affecting, you know, and we may like each other as people and have a good time talking. But you know, is it a good decision to hire me? Maybe it is. I hope so. I'm looking forward, you know, it seems like it would be good to work together, but you need to take some time away from me and check in with yourself, check in with people you trust, and make sure that it feels like a a regulated and aligned decision.

Stephanie Allen: 24:40

I love that. I love that!

Maren Oslac: 24:41

So and I do, I want to go back a second, because I think that some of our some of our listeners, are business owners. Who were, they don't do the manipulation from a place of realizing that it's a manipulation and or from a like from a negative place. They do it because that's what they were trained to do. This is just business, you know, best practices, best marketing practices are fill in the blank, and they tend towards this, put a time limit on it. Do I mean, we just went through, you know, like all the season of sales, we're in the thick of it right? And so there is this constant, ongoing, this is the way that business is done. So I love that you gave that example for business, that there is another way, if you are somebody who is doing that type of marketing, and that's how you close sales. And you do feel the ick when you're the person who's doing it, it doesn't feel aligned for you... know that there is another way. There are multiple other ways and...

Mark Silver: 25:57

...that are still effective. You still end up getting paid. Here's the funny thing is that when someone with a good heart and good intentions takes on those kinds of strategies just because they don't know any better, and that's what they were taught, it can almost be worse, because someone who is intuitive or connected or whatever, can read that this person has good intentions, that they're not trying to cheat me, but the strategy itself is manipulative, and so because they're not, you know, the person isn't reading that the that the person selling has bad intentions. Oh, wow, this person has good intentions, or feels good, or we have a good connection, and they feel but because the strategy itself is doing the manipulation, it can really throw people off. And the result of that is that people still will feel it, even if someone has really good intentions, and you get more cancelations, you get more returns. You get more unhappy customers. I had... my son joined a gym recently... started going with friends. (He's taller than me. Now he's going to be big anyway. He's a... teenagers. What are you going to do?) My, you know, we had our card had to get canceled because debit card had to get canceled because of fraud, some kind of alert, something, of course, it happens all the time, right? You replace the card. This gym puts the, you know, when the charge doesn't go through, doesn't let you know that the charge didn't go through and then they charge you a late fee... and predatory. And I was just, I cannot tell you, like, I didn't have positive or negative feelings about the gym. I had vaguely positive feelings about it because my son was going, he was enjoying it, and he was, you know, like, I'm, like, that's great. And they're, doing it now, I'm yucked. I hate this place. And, you know, I will never say a good thing about it, you know. And it like these kind if we take on these tactics, because they, quote, unquote work, they can do real damage to your business,

Maren Oslac: 28:23

Yeah and I think you know, when we going back to

Mark Silver: 28:25

And it's not working on a large scale either, the beginning, when we talking about the heart of right, it's, it's what it is going back to, what is the heart of our business? What is the intention behind it? What, what do we want to see happen for our business and for our clients? And I think most people have really good intentions for their clients. And have... you know, it's like, they just get swept off because where I think a lot of small business owners like myself, when I started my studio, I owned a ballroom dance studio. And when I started it, how fun. I knew very little about business, and then I dove in, you know, as a professional dancer, I then backdoored it into business, right? And I did a lot of studying and a lot of and you know, when you're doing that, which I think most small businesses do that, they start off as people who are excellent at what they do. Then Somebody's knocking on their door saying, Well, would you teach me? Would you tell me? Would you do that for me? Would you like... and so now all of a sudden, you have a business, right? And you're like, figuring it out as you go. And so you hear, you know, you take the the workshop, and you do the this, and you do and so you learn these business practices. You have good intentions, like you said, and you're learning. And what you're learning is traditional big business, which is kind of smarmy, and unfortunately it gets passed down, you know? Like, I really think of it, like so much of I'm a big gardener, and large agriculture got passed down to the smallfarmer, and it's done so much damage. And small farmer doesn't need large agriculture, but it's just passed down. And the same kind of thing with business. I see it so many, so often. We just adopt what is working on a large scale, not realizing we don't need to do it like that. like it's accumulating money to very few people. But I think anyone who works in these large corporations, there's very few people that are happy, right? And there's not...and, you know, I have so much to say about scale, but there's, you know, like, the only thing, this is a radical statement, and I don't know, you know, I'm sure people would argue with me about this. But the only thing that I believe that large, you know, at scale, global Corp, you know, like, those kind of, like, large corporations, the only thing they're really efficient at is concentrating money into the hands of very few people. There's way more efficiency and care and just success that can be had at a much smaller scale.

Maren Oslac: 31:23

I love that, because I was...

Stephanie Allen: 31:25

I'm totally cheering over here too!

Maren Oslac: 31:27

Ya! And, you know, I mean all of us, all three of us work with the solo-preneur to small business. And I, you know, there's a there's a group, and they have, they say that their slogan is kind of business as a force for good. And I do believe that that is a grassroots small business, like we can do that in our own small businesses. We can do that when there's less than 50 people that we can like, because there's that influence, there's that flow that we are in the flow of other people. And so if we are going to change the world, I do believe that it comes at this level, at the small business level, that's saying... Yes, I vote for business as a force for good in the world, and I can do my part. And this is what I hear in the heart of business, is like, you're helping people to do their part by stepping into let's do it differently.

Mark Silver: 32:31

Yes, absolutely. And I think, you know, in this instance, it's, well, I don't know if this gets too wonky, but there's, there's a difference, like trade and commerce has been part of humanity for 1000's of years, but capitalism has only been around for a few 100 and capitalism as a structure is has brought a lot of toxicity into it, and it has left Most people worse off, and it's created tremendous devastation. And I think that what's been successful, you know, education wise, is promoting the myth that trade and commerce is the same as capitalism and it is not. It is not and capitalism is when the means... when the assets are privately owned and controlled, not by the people who are actually doing the work, you know. And so when you have tiny businesses, people can be much more closely connected. And like you can do cooperatives, you can do profit sharing, you can do all these different ways for people to be really directly related to it. And it's anyway, this is a much larger conversation. I probably shouldn't open that can of worms.

Stephanie Allen: 33:53

I think its right on. I have a question...

Mark Silver: 33:58

but it's really, it's really important to understand that capitalism is not, is not healthy for the planet, and we can see that.

Stephanie Allen: 34:10

I don't think it's healthy in a way, of a mindset, too. I work with a lot of clients who, when I talk to them and say, Have you ever considered opening up your own business? And there's usually a couple different views of this, of why they're not opening in their own business. One is, they're like, Oh no, I love what I do, and, you know, as my hobby, and if I made it into a business, then, then it would control me, it would then it wouldn't be fun anymore. And I think that's what you're saying, is about the capitalism. Because we've have such this toxic view around capitalism, they've neuro associated doing what they love and making a difference in this world is not in the same as capitalism, which it isn't. But they think that if they actually do any kind of business, that it's going to be some sort of capitalist sort of thing. And they they lose themselves, so to speak.

Mark Silver: 34:56

Well, I would actually add to that, because I don't think that that's wrong. I think you're right with that. And in addition to that, capitalism, at least here in the US as well, but in other countries as well, has been life has been made so much more difficult. You know that it a lot of people struggle to survive financially and to take that pressure into something that somebody has joy about. I don't think it's just a mindset thing. I think there's a very legitimate fear of like, oh, how do I meet the pressure of paying for groceries and paying the mortgage and paying, you know, and caring from family or caring for loved ones or just caring for self and uh...joy...

Stephanie Allen: 35:46

...and your security, your security and the joy like, how do you integrate the two of them together? I find that that's one like that... I don't know how to do this. I don't know how to. I don't know how to live if I actually shifted from leaving my job and doing something that really brings me joy. How do I live in my foundational needs? I think there's that. And then I think there's also the pressure the other types of of individuals I've talked to, too, that they get the pressure that, hey, they're doing well in their small business, and they're getting, you know, they're, they're have sufficient needs met and everything. And everything. And then there's the pressure from the outside of saying, oh, you should, you should franchise this, or you should open up another location and you should do this and add more people. And they're like, Ah, no, that's too much to me too, like, I'm doing great. And I think, like, those two are the opposite sort of, like, how do I, how do I integrate all that, yeah, and I think that's something that you bring to light with those that you work with, is that, right? Like, how to kind of structure?

Mark Silver: 36:48

Well it's interesting because, you know, the model that we work off is there's four stages of business development, and the first three stages are absolutely necessary, and they're kind of geared to the micro business, micro sized business, you know, either solo or there's a small handful of people involved and and getting into momentum where the business is just functioning well, and everybody's getting paid, and it's just and it's working and you're enjoying it. That is, you have to get there if you're going to make the business work. The fourth stage, which I call independence, is when you're really becoming a quote, unquote CEO, and you're developing enough of a team, then the business can do its thing without you, you know, which is what you know, whether you're franchising or right? You know, it's like, it's a larger business operation, and most people have been taught, you know, led to believe that in order to get the kind of financial freedom or schedule freedom, or what have you, or just what some people call success out of a business, you have to go into that fourth stage. And it's not true. It's absolutely not true. Whenever somebody says, Oh, I want to go there. I'm there's... I always push back hard and take them through a whole kind of questionnaire and assessment and like, really like question, because most people just want a really well running third stage business that gives them the vacation, that gives them plenty of pay, that gets them to do what they enjoy, that next business requires so much more. There's a whole new set of skills that you have to learn. There's a whole intense payroll that you have to take on, and there's a good deal of cash flow and fun. You know, money just... you need resources, and it's very easy to stumble at that stage and get buried. And unless you really make the jump in a significant way, many people end up making as much or less for themselves from a stage four business as they would from a well running stage three business. And they go... huh, working all this hard and did all that work and I'm not even getting the financial reward. Now, some people do go on and and do really well with that, but it's like you have to, you know, you talked about, you know, ballroom teaching, ballroom dancing, like you have to enjoy the process of developing that stage of a business. You have to want to do that. You can't kind of do it incidentally and it just, it just, it just takes a lot, and for the right people, it can be really joyous. It. I'm not saying it's a inherently wrong thing. I'm just saying that it's not, it's not that it's not an it shouldn'tever be an automatic goal. It takes a lot of discernment and and contemplation. And if you can get your business to stage three, I often recommend people coasting there for a while and really taking in the enjoyment of it. And if they are thinking about stage 4... save up your money so you have the resources, you know, to be able to make that leap,

Stephanie Allen: 40:09

I think too, like what you're saying, it's like, it isn't always what you think it is. And so to really, to really have someone who can ask you good questions from the heart, from the soul of like you know, why? Why do you want to take it bigger? Why do you... why do you not want to put your art or your beauty out there to to share with others? What are the obstacles so that it comes more from instead of a reaction aspect, it comes more from a place of evolution and growth and service and yeah, like you said, the act of love, love towards yourself, love, love towards others. And I, I know myself when I... when I always said, when I try to make something happen, it never happens. It just because there's an angst that comes from within me and there's an attachment, and I'm not listening, I'm not listening to my own self. I'm not listening to someone else. And people get that people like... but when I, when I totally let go and and I, and I come back into why do I do what I do and what, what is it that matters to me? And then I let go. And I it's like that, that sayingin the 12 step programs, I let go, let God. It's like I let go let God. That doesn't mean I'm not caring about it. That's means that I'm not paying attention. It just means that I'm allowing spirit or guidance to come in to be with me as my partner. And it shows up differently.

Mark Silver: 41:40

It does Yes, yes, absolutely.

Maren Oslac: 41:45

One of the themes that I keep hearing throughout the conversation is that well, we're moving towards something it's much more empowering and powerful and healing. You mentioned healing, every act of business can be a way of healing. And the other thing, like, you know, kind of the counterpart to that, is that when we're triggered, whether it's through our advertising or, you know, whatever, and we're not emotionally regulated, and so we end up reacting, meaning moving away from, like, you know, reactionary mode rather than a towards mode. And I, I love that, because one of the things, I guess, when I think about The Heart of Business, and what you... what you're bringing to the table, I see it as a when you get to know your heart, you're moving towards something. You're moving towards your passion, towards your beauty, towards your healing, towards what you came to the planet, to be in service to and to know that there are people like you out there that are doing this, that are helping businesses to step into that, with the questions, with the framework, with all the tools that you bring to the table and your background, it just excites the crap out of me.

Mark Silver: 43:09

Thank you. (shared laughter)

Maren Oslac: 43:13

So as we finish up, what I would love to know is when, when you're looking at... one of the things that Stephanie often talk about with leadership is that leaders... we become who we want the people around us to be. I know that sounds like a strange sentence, and if I am, you know that they say with teachers, we often teach what we need to learn the most, and so when we're working with ourselves, is there something at that you do for yourself or with yourself, a practice that you have, that you'd be willing to share that allows you to keep growing into the person that you want to become, the leader you want to become, so that you can then be the example for those that you're leading.

Mark Silver: 44:07

It's a big question.

Maren Oslac: 44:09

Nothing like ending on a tiny note...

Mark Silver: 44:12

Yeah, well I have, I mean, my spiritual practice has multiple practices in it, and so I don't want to overwhelm or, you know, sketch all of that out...

Maren Oslac: 44:24

...and you don't need to share the actual practice just like if you have a

Mark Silver: 44:27

Well, I just, I guess. So there's two things I want to say in response. One is that I think that, and I don't think this. I don't think you meant it this way, but I think that there's because you, you didn't say the practice, you said a practice. But I think what happens for a lot of us is we're, we can be very reductionist. We're looking for like the thing that's going to do it. And what I've noticed, I... we also love gardening. We're, we're trying to help create a food forest on the property that we're on. And we do a lot of gardening, and I just, I planted a whole bunch of nut trees and fruit trees. Anyway, for a plant to grow, it needs a lot of things. It needs a whole community around it. It needs the soil. It needs nutrients, like, there's like, there's not, there's not just one thing that it needs. It needs so much, but with a really supportive environment... it grows on its own. It just does its thing, like you don't have to make it grow. And so I, I think that if we like, for us to remember, for each of us to remember, that... Oh, it's okay, like, we have many legitimate needs, and it's okay to be aware of them and to care for them and to get them met. So that's one thing. The second thing that I want to say is that I think, like, there's a, there is kind of like a at the heart of a lot of the practices I do, there's this... I've come to understand, that one of the most important capacities that a human being can develop is the ability, the willingness to be uncomfortable emotionally without needing to fix or soothe immediately. And there's a question that we like to ask clients and ourselves in these moments, which is... is love available even here? And so if I'm in some kind of a reacted state, reactive state, or I'm just just feeling messed up, man, the other day, I was, like, feeling so off. It was just like, off, off and like, what if I didn't have to not feel off? What if, you know, what if love was, is love available even here in the state of offness, and there's just God just saying that I just feel the space come in. I can take a breath, and it didn't even necessarily change the mood, like I still felt off. But that wasn't the point. The point was that there was spaciousness, that there was acceptance, that I didn't feel so tight or cramped or twisted around it. It's like, oh, what's here? And I find that, that is what helps expand my container and my ability to be with many, many different types of clients or situations without being as reactive and I really cherish that practice.

Stephanie Allen: 47:30

I think that is such a beautiful practice, because when we go back to the reaction, so many of us, when we feel that emotion, we either want to fix it, get away from so we either push it away, or we dive deeper into it and try to mess it up even more, or we literally freeze like deer stuck in a headlight. And what I heard you say is that you made space like... is there love here? Is there love in this moment? Didn't change the mood, but it created a safety space for you to be with.what is.

Mark Silver: 48:07

Yeah, I'm no longer alone in that feeling.

Stephanie Allen: 48:09

Exactly and that it's okay, and that this... it's like that thing this too shall pass. Like, if I can just be with this, it too will move through, like, the weather patterns. And that's kindness to me. That's so kind, kind to yourself. And I think that's what I'm hearing too is the leader that you are just in the very beginning that you said, instead of like, pushing people like, like, letting them get off the phone and go talk to their loved ones about an you know, an opportunity, if it's if it's an opportunity for them and giving them that space so that they can show up in their heart according to their guidance, not someone else pushing onto it, their agenda.

Mark Silver: 48:56

Exactly. We had a new employee come on, I guess, two years now. She... people don't tend to leave luckily, people stick around. We had somebody retire. She wanted to be with her grandkids. Go figure and, we had to replace her and what we did was we waited. I waited until this employee made her first mistake, and then we celebrated. I said, you know? I said, Oh, you made your first mistake. Yes! You know, that's what we're waiting for. We all make mistakes. And just like, just actually celebrated the mistake and made her feel really accepted, and made her feel really like, you know, just explaining that, you know, I want people to, of course, don't want people to make mistakes on purpose or through sloppiness, but everybody makes mistakes, and we, I would much rather someone feel empowered to try something and to act and to know that they're not going to be punished for their mistakes, then to be doing their job or doing whateverit is they do, trying to avoid mistakes, rather than trying to do you know, rather than trying to be effective or trying to be creative or trying to you know.

Stephanie Allen: 50:09

And we learn so much from those mistakes. Yes, we learn and grow, not just individually, but as a team. Yes, exactly.

Maren Oslac: 50:20

I think we could go into a whole another podcast just with that. It's fun because Stephanie and I actually did a podcast late last year. It was called missed-takes or mistakes, and so, yeah, pulling apart words. We like doing that too. Anyway,we have absolutely, totally enjoyed speaking with you, and I know our listeners will want to contact you, so if they were interested in contacting you, possibly to work with you, or, you know, tell us a little bit... I think you have a book that you wrote. Tell us a little bit about your book. How to reach you, things you've got going on.

Mark Silver: 50:59

If I was savvy, I'd have the book right here, right so I'll grab it anyway. A nice, easy way to connect without being too committed, Heart Centered Business - Healing from toxic business, so your small business can thrive. There's a lot in here that's both healing and also very practical. I've just heard from somebody who said this is the only business advice that's really stuck with me and worked, you know, and so I just... and so there's there's the book. You can find us at www.heartofbusiness.com. The thing I always recommend is just get on our email list and you'll know after the, you know, the first few emails that come to you that kind of explain where we're coming from and give you some insights about how business works in some very practical ways. And then every Wednesday, we send out something else, you know, that's tends to be a combination of spiritual and aware and very practical and you'll know, you know pretty soon, whether you know whether what we do resonates. And then if there's something you want to do with us, if you want to take a course, if you want to get more personal support, if you want to join our learning community, there's, you know, there's, there's other options, but there's plenty of free stuff, and it's, it's best to kind of, you know, check it out first and see if it resonates.

Maren Oslac: 52:27

Love that. Well, thank you so much. Stephanie, did you look link you wanted to say something

Stephanie Allen: 52:32

Yeah, I was just to say thank you. Thank you so much, Mark. It's been absolutely a delight talking to you. And I love that. I just, I just I've loved this time, and it's changed a lot within myself and how I've seen things and possibilities. So that's so wonderful, and may, may your book and all that you do, I love that it's healing because it's, it's the world is what's so needing it right now. So thank you so much for taking that time.

Mark Silver: 52:58

Thank you so much, and thank you both for the space that you all hold. This has been a beautiful conversation. I feel very held. And you know it's yeah, I just appreciate the two of you.

Maren Oslac: 53:11

Thanks. And as a reminder to all of our listeners, if you're driving, don't worry about it. Everything you can find everything and links to Mark and his website and his book in our show notes. So thank you all for listening, and we will see you next time on The Soulful Leader Podcast.

Stephanie Allen: 53:38

And that wraps up another episode of The Soulful Leader Podcast with your hosts, Stephanie Allen and

Maren Oslac: 53:45

Maren Oslac. Thank you for listening. If you'd like to dive deeper, head over to our website, at www.thesoulfulleaderpodcast.com.

Stephanie Allen: 53:55

Until next time...