From Emptiness to Fulfillment

You’re spinning in place. You’ve done this already and your success is feeling hollow.

• 👉🏻 Maybe you've built the business, or climbed the mountain. 
• 👉🏻 Maybe you've checked every box society told you to check. 
• 👉🏻 Maybe it’s just a quiet, persistent whisper telling you “there’s more, there’s something else…” 

In this episode, Stephanie and Maren explore what happens when the formula society teaches you stops working — and why so many amazing achievers find themselves spinning in place, wondering why success feels hollow. If you've ever felt like you're running on autopilot, doing all the right things but feeling strangely disconnected from your own life, this one is for you.

This isn't about blowing up your life. 

It's about getting curious enough to ask better questions — and brave enough to sit in the uncertainty long enough to hear the answers.

Included in today’s episode:

• The man who built his business three times — and why his energy completely collapsed when asked if he'd do it again
• Why we’re are trained to *do* yet never taught how to *be*
• The Spiral Dynamics framework (developed by Clare Graves, expanded by Ken Wilber) and why the "apex achiever" is only the halfway point of human development
• Byron Katie's powerful question: Is it true?
• How stuck energy in the mind and emotions eventually shows up as physical pain — and what Chinese medicine teaches us about flow
• The Hopi wisdom: "Push off from the shore and find the flow"
• Why questioning your internal narrative is the most radical (and most avoided) act of self-leadership

Loved This Episode?

If this resonated with you, the best thing you can do is share it with someone who needs to hear it — that friend who keeps telling you they feel like something's missing. They'll thank you for it.

And if you haven't already, leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps more soulful leaders find their way to this conversation.

TRANSCRIPT

Watch on YouTube

REFERENCES:

• 8:08 Byron Katie The work
• 13:10 Spiral Dynamics
• 19:27 Your Body Doesn’t Lie - John Diamond
• 19:33 You Can Heal Your Life - Louise Hay

Love this episode? Rate and review us on Apple Podcasts—it helps other soulful leaders find us!

Have a question or topic suggestion? We'd love to hear from you. Reach out through our website or social media.

📬  Connect With Us
Website: www.TheSoulfulLeaderPodcast.com
Main Website: www.tslp.life

Find us on:

• YouTube: @soulfulleaders 
• LinkedIn: The Soulful Leaders 
• Facebook: The Soulful Leaders 

Newsletter: Get our weekly newsletter 'Shift Happens' with tips, tricks, and insights to uplevel your life and leadership, plus notifications of new podcast releases and blog posts. Sign up at www.tslp.life

Transcript

Why Success Can Feel Empty

Stephanie 0:03

In a world where we have everything and it's still not enough, we're often left wondering: is this really it?

Maren 0:10

Deep inside, you know there's more life. You're ready to leave behind the old push your way through and claim the deeper, more meaningful life that's calling you.

Stephanie 0:19

That's what we invite you to explore with us.

Maren 0:22

We're your hosts, Stephanie Allen and Maren Oslac.

Maren and Stephanie 0:26

And this is The Soulful Leader Podcast.

Burnout And The Lost Spark

Stephanie 0:30

Yay!

Maren 0:31

There's something I've been hearing a lot of people talk about recently about feeling burned out in their jobs, and whether it's an entrepreneurial thing or it's actually a job that they're going to, and yet not wanting to make the shift to doing something else because they don't know how to, because they don't know what. And it was really brought home recently when I was talking to somebody, I was at a conference recently, and there was a gentleman there, and he really wanted to step into something more. And he felt... you could hear... you could feel his excitement when he talked about it, like what he wanted to do. He wanted to speak and he wanted to really reach people. And he had built his business and something had happened and it deteriorated, he built it again, and then somebody stole money and then he built it again. So he's done this three times. He's built a very successful business three times. And there was a question for him. Somebody said to him, so if you if you decided not to do the speaking thing, if it feels too overwhelming and you don't want to do that, what would you do? And it was so interesting to watch him because all of his energy just kind of like dropped into himself, and he very clearly said he projected it, and you know, he had some strength behind it. He had no... none of his enthusiasm that was there, and he said, I would build the business again. And it was like somebody snuffed out his candle, and you could tell he could do it in his sleep, he could build that business in his sleep, which I think a lot of people would be like, shit, well, I want to do that, right? And he's not at that place, and that's what I'm hearing more.

Stephanie 2:36

There was no ignition, there was no joy, there was like, yeah, okay, I can do this again, right? Is that what I'm hearing?

Maren 2:43

Yeah, for him.

Stephanie 2:45

Yeah, and I think I've encountered that both in my own life as well, of like, where you can just do something on autopilot, and there's no... it's not that it doesn't matter to you, it's not that it's not meaningful, but that you haven't put the meaning into it, like you haven't shown up to be present to it. And then if you did show up to be present to it, then you might say, why am I doing this? Like, this just doesn't... it is that what I'm hearing too? It's like well doing something just one autopilot, like how many of us do that?

Maren 3:19

Oh gosh, yeah. And here's the thing is, I think in building the business those three times, it was meaningful to him. There was something there, and it was like, okay, been there, done that, and yes, it will pay my bills, my family will be secure. All of the outer things that society tells us, all right. Like he had climbed the mountain, he was at the top of it, and it was like, okay, I should be happy, excited, fulfilled all of the stuff, and he wasn't feeling that. And so there was this other part of him that's like, well, what's next? What's the "more"? Because I have... he felt like I have meaning, I have all of the stuff, I have the money coming in, I have the meaning, I have done I'm doing something right, and yet there was still this niggling, like, there's something more. What the heck is it? And I think that that's a scary place because it means you need to- go ahead.

Stephanie 4:30

I was like, you know, sometimes you're saying, you know, what got you there isn't going to get you to the next place that you want, like that. It's like the external motivation to take action on something, you can keep repeating it and keep getting that, but all of a sudden it comes to a point where it becomes unfulfilling. It's just a habit. You can do it in your sleep, kind of thing. What would it be in an internal journey in? Meaning it's that whole saying of saying you don't know what you've got till it's gone. In the way of like well, I often because I'm in the healthcare, I often think about you know, changing bodies, our aging bodies that all of a sudden he's like, Oh god, you know, I used to think I was fat. Now I look at that picture and I'm like, oh, if I could only have that body back again, I was so great. But in the time I didn't, so it's like, what was motivating me externally that I wasn't able to see the internal what it meant?

Questioning The Inner Narrative

Maren 5:35

If you could show up now, right? So maybe it's asking the question from your future self of like if you could show up now to that person who thought that she was fat and be like, what are you looking at? What are you judging yourself by?

Stephanie 5:54

And what are you comparing yourself to?

Maren 5:56

What are you comparing yourself to? What's the value system? Because I think about that for this gentleman of like, if he could go forward, because right now he's like, well, do I just stay where I am, which is comfortable, I know how to do it, and it checks all the boxes, or do I really dive inside and find out what's calling me, which is scarier than all get out.

Stephanie 6:24

...or if we don't have the skills to do that, and we don't know what we're gonna find. And so we have this narrative that it's scary, and so therefore, why would I do something that's scary? Or we have this narrative that it's going to be painful and unpleasant, and it could be, or that it's just gonna be Pandora's box and it's gonna unleash a whole lot of things I don't really want to look at. But what if it isn't? What if all of those things aren't true?

Maren 6:51

Well, and that's where I'm thinking like if he could, any of us, could go to our future self and ask those questions of what are you judging that by? Is it by society standards? Is it by... is it because of X, Y, and Z, right? Looking at where does that judgment come from? Because if we can clear where the judgment comes from, then it it frees up some space to be present to what really wants to happen. Because here was what I was thinking when he was talking is something that excites him... that's like it's a little bit scary and it's a little bit on the edge, and he doesn't know how to get there, right? What you just said of like what got you here won't get you there, and he's already at the top, so why would he risk all of that? For what? For what and for why? And so if you could look at, well, what's the judgment system telling me that I'm already at the top and I have it all? And then Byron Katie has this great system where she asks, is it true? And asking that question of really questioning ourselves, like if you were able to go back and tell that, you know, younger self, well, you're not actually fat. Well, you know what, your younger self is not going to believe that. If you were able to go back and tell your younger self, question it. Question it.

Stephanie 8:33

Yeah, question if it's true. We become so, question everything outside of ourselves, but we don't question the internal, do we? Like we'll question governments, we'll question health policies, we'll question, you know, our neighbors, we'll question, we'll question all these other people and say, well, why are they doing that? And we challenge it, but do we challenge the narrative that goes on into our head that says you're not good enough, you're not successful enough, you're not beautiful, you're not, you know, whatever. And then we just so easily believe it. Why? Like, why don't we question the internal?

Maren 9:13

Right.

Stephanie 9:13 Stephanie 9:13

I'm just really curious about that. I'm curious about that with myself, actually, to be honest with you. I'm like, yeah, why don't I question that? Like to be able to say, is that really true? Or have I just conditioned myself to believe that it's true? Like, am I really that certain that that is absolute, absolute truth? There's no space for questioning in there.

Maren 9:36

So it's so interesting because I just recently read a quote that was attributed to Mark Twain. I don't know if he said it or not. And it says that it's not what you don't know that will kill you, it's what you think you know for sure that just ain't so. And if that's not a prescription for question it... it's like what you think you know, question it because it's just most likely not true, and it's running your.

Stephanie 10:14

Yeah, and there's a big risk there, though, isn't it, when you question it, and all of a sudden you go, you create some space for that belief system to say, is that really true? Can I just question? Like, I'm not saying that it's right or wrong or good or bad, just like just give it some space to just question it. Meaning you're gonna give your own consciousness some space to explore. Maybe there's other views of this, maybe there's other ways to approach this. But we become so absolute that this is the way it's gonna happen. You know, I had a situation the other day when, you know, there's some some hard things that are going on in my town, and it's really stirred everybody's inner narratives up about are we safe? You know, is everything going to hell in a handbasket and it's only gonna get worse? And we have these narratives. And I'm like, geez, I don't want to give that energy, but I don't want to ignore it either, because when we ignore it, it's still it still gives it energy. We need to face it, but to face it with love and face it with curiosity and challenge it. It's like, well, is that true? Because if I believe that to be true, I'm gonna give it all my energy and I'm actually going to invest in it to make that happen. Because guess what? Our egos, we love to be right. So we are going to set it up to totally make sure that we are right and that's all there is to it. So that's what I'm saying. But question, and that's what kills us, by the way. If it doesn't kill us physically, it definitely kills our relationships, it kills us emotionally, kills us mentally. It doesn't...

Maren 11:51

not the questioning, not the question.

Stephanie 11:55

Oh God no, the certainty does... the absolute certainty does, yeah, it just limits us. So, you know, to be able to really look at it without trying to fix it or force it. I think even just being, and we talk a lot about this too, of the stillness of being able to be uncertain without trying to fix it or change it, just to sit there in the uncertainty, surrender into it because that is what's making space for possibilities to then find you.

High Achiever Identity And Surrender

Maren 12:34

So, what makes that so difficult is that we're trained as high achievers. You know, we we've talked a little bit about this on this podcast before of the apex of community, of our, you know, like our systems of where we live, right? Like everything kind of bows to this God of achiever. Like that's the apex of what we're what we aspire to.

Stephanie 13:08

Right.

Maren 13:09

And if you've ever heard of there's a system called Spiral Dynamics that started by Claire Graves, and several people have done some work with it. Ken Wilbur is somebody who's done a lot of work with it. And what it's showing is that this high achiever of who we all strive to be is the perfect high achiever is only they're showing halfway through our development. And the mystics would say that there's even more levels beyond that. But let's just say for argument's sake, it's halfway through our development. That means that this place that we all aspire to, that we're like, yeah, that... I want that. We get there and we're all excited, and then there is this moment of is this all there is? But I can't give up the high achiever because it's supposed to be like the top... I made it, be all and end-all. The be all and end all, woo-hoo, right? And for me to admit that there's something else, the next level, means I actually need to surrender. And I don't mean it in a like I have to give up all my worldly goods type of surrender. What I mean is that I have to let go of the identity that this is all there is, and that's the internal that you were just talking about.

Stephanie 14:41

Yeah, to sit in the darkness, to sit in the unknown, to sit in the uncertainty, to give up that certainty allows for the transformation to happen.

Maren 14:52

And that's not something that's taught because we're taught to be high achievers, right? We're taught to be doers, not be-ers. And there there has to be a there is both, right? It's not one or the other, and it's scary to be a be-er because we're not trained how to do it. And one of the places that like a lot of the assumption is well, okay, then I need to go to an ashram in India and live for two years to like get to that next place. And that may have been true in the past, and it's definitely not something that you have to be doing anymore. There is a path, and that's what what we work with is there is a path to doing it in your life, waking up to that next level and the next level and the next level within your own life. So, how do we do it? I think starting with that questing, that questioning that you were talking about of what is what are the assumptions that I'm making? It it requires inner work, it requires going inside.

A Practical Belief Questioning Exercise

Stephanie 16:13

So, yes. So, what if you took the assumptions and said, you know, what are my assumptions? What do I believe and absolutely righteously right about? And then making a list of those, and then putting on a piece of paper, and then sitting back and just like looking at them. Look at how you feel when you are absolute about that. Like, what does that do to your body, to your breathing, to your awareness? Where do you focus? And I'm not saying it's like this is just this is just an awareness practice. This is not about right or wrong, and then who would you be without that belief? Then, like, take each one of those beliefs and say, who would I be without that belief? What might be my life open me to? Just as a practice, just like a curiosity and wonder, you know?

Maren 17:10

It's so funny. I actually it reminds me of somebody that I was working with, and she just contacted me and said, you won't believe what opened up in my life. So she owns a pizza place and has for years. When I owned my dance studio, her pizza place was right down the street from mine, and so she was very identified as the pizza owner, like the owner of the pizza place, and fought through like just crazy, crazy stuff to make this thing successful, and was very, very attached to that identity. And so we did some work around her identity and what's possible and all of these things, and whether it was actually true or not. And that was what, gosh, two years ago now, year and a half, two years ago. And like I said, she just contacted me and she's like, everything has opened up. It is amazing how different my life is, and I just wanted to say thank you. And so that's a great wow, those questions they make a huge difference. Like she's starting to public speak and she's doing all kinds of really, really cool stuff right now.

Stephanie 18:37

I think you know, to really look inside and listen to that inner narrative and and assumptions and question it because you know, Henry Ford did say those who think they can and those who think they can't are both right, and so we always are going to be right no matter what. So when you put those righteousness things down, just ask yourself, how are these directing my life? Are they moving me towards an ideal? Are they move or are they disempowering me? Like how what's happening internally?

Maren 19:12

I love the question where you said, like, you had them feel what it feels like in their bodies, because our bodies... there's a book, there was a book Your Body Doesn't Lie. Is that what it was called? Our Bodies Don't lie, something like that.

Stephanie 19:33

You Can Heal Your Life, Louise Hay?

Maren 19:35

No, there yes, there is that one, which is a great book. There, anyway, there's, you know, our bodies are like little thermometers for us, they tell us when we're on track, when we're off track, right? They they we can really get great information from them.

When The Body Shows Stuck Energy

Stephanie 19:53

Yeah, the body never lies, it always... your physical body is speaking the voice of the unconscious. So by the time it shows up in your body, it has been unconsciously going on in your mind, in your emotions, and in your heart and soul for a long, long time. And so the physical body is the densest of the manifestation. So, you know, people will say to me, well, couldn't you know, my knee hurts? Couldn't it just be because I twisted it and it hurts? Like, why does it have to have some sort of mental, emotional, and spiritual meaning to it? I'm like, yeah, that's true. It can be just because you twisted it, it hurts. And if it doesn't get better and it continues to keep hurting, what is going on in the unconscious that keeps making it unable to heal or transform. There's something blocking it, and that takes courage to look inside, to go into to patience to sit in that place of not knowing and absolute confidence that what you need to know or what needs to happen will actually arise itself and you will know what to do. So it's a practice.

Maren 21:12

I want you to go back and tell me a little bit more about the physical is the densest of the manifestations because I think the rest of what you said will make sense more sense, I should say, when there's that understanding.

Stephanie 21:30

When you take like a physical structure of anything, it's the slowest moving vibrational energy actually makes form. The more you can speed up the electrons and photons, the the faster they go, the lighter they become, the less you're able to see them, the more spacious they become. Like they just, so when we have a thought, you know, a thought or an emotion, if they, if we keep practicing them over and over, eventually, they start slowing down, slowing down, they create a density. So in in Chinese medicine, like we think of flow. So where there's pain or discomfort is where something gets stuck, like the thought or the emotion is not moving. It's now become concretized, it's become stuck. It's so present. And that's what we were talking about. Write down all the things that you are absolutely certain about. Like you just say, absolutely, that's that stuck energy. And whether it's true or not true, it doesn't matter. It becomes stuck energy. And now there's no flow. So over time, when there's no flow, you think of any kind of water that doesn't flow, it becomes toxic. Doesn't even matter if it's the best water in the world. If it's not flowing, it is going to become toxic. It's stagnant. And that stagnation then creates pain or stuckness. And that's our physical body. So our physical body, like literally, if you are thinking something wonderful and happy, then you breathe deeper and the blood flows freely. But if you all of a sudden start thinking about something stressful, you tense up, you maybe tense those muscles, you may even slow down or even stop your breathing a bit. And now that internal circulation, that flow is not moving. You keep doing that day in, day out, day in, day out. You're gonna have some sort of stuck energy, pain, symptom over time. And you might think, Well, I just woke up with a neck pain. How did this happen? I must have slept wrong. No, we probably had a thought or an emotion that we've been hanging on to. Just like we're certain. We're certain we're hanging on to it. And the more you try to hang on to something that's actually meant to flow and move, like if you're going down the stream and you grab onto that branch because you're flowing in this in the rapids, you're like, dang, I don't want to flow in these rapids, and you grab onto that branch, but the rapids keep moving, and you're you're trying to hang on to something, it's gonna pull that arm right out of its socket. It's gonna hurt. That's why the Hopi's say, you know, push off from the shore, get out into the middle of the of the river and find that flow. And just like your beginning story of he had a current that he could repeat, but it wasn't his flow. It's not the direction he wants to keep going. He knew that his river was changing and didn't quite know where to go. And so we just default back into our habitual patterns, even though they may not necessarily be nourishing to us.

Maren 24:37

Right. And what was nourishing to us can change. I think that's the other piece is that we assume that once we have a winning formula, that that's our winning formula. And if we change, we're gonna become a losing formula.

Stephanie 24:53

And what we don't realize is broccoli and spinach every single day, day in, day out, you're gonna miss some vital nutrients and minerals. Right. Now it doesn't matter how good it is. It's like sometimes we do need something else, and it's time to change our diet.

Maren 25:07

Yeah, as we change, we need to actually notice that oh, the river went that direction, and I'm still over here. I'm now in the stagnant pool, right? Right, because I tried to hold on to the branch that was my...

Stephanie 25:23

and I'm spinning, I'm in the whirlpool, and at first it was kind of fun, and now I'm just spinning and I don't know how to get out of it. Right now I'm just spinning...

Maren 25:33

and I'm afraid to let go of the branch, and there is a different winning formula for you. It will take that awareness and the practices that you mentioned before. This is... I love these conversations. Thank you for having it with me. And hopefully, you all, our listeners, are enjoying it.

Show Notes Links And Closing

Maren 26:01

I will make sure that all of those questions are in the show notes. So make sure you check that out. It'll be wherever you listen to your Podcast, they publish show notes or you can find it on our website. The Soulful Leader Podcast itself has a website. It's www.thesoulfulleaderpodcast.com, or you can find us on our normal website, which is www.tslp.life, because we are all about standing for life. And you can find us on social media too at The Soulful Leaders. So we look forward to seeing you in a couple weeks and let us know how this resonated with you and what questions you have for us. We look forward to talking to you.

Stephanie 26:55

And that wraps up another episode of the Soulful Leader Podcast with your hosts, Stephanie Allen...

Maren 27:01

...and Maren Oslac. Thank you for listening. If you'd like to dive deeper, head over to our website at www.TheSoulfulLeaderPodcast.com.

Stephanie 27:12

Until next time...